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Most of those who commented on ID in the last post are opposed to Intelligent Design (ID), and for different reasons. It is one thing to oppose a theory; it is another to question its scientific credentials. Does ID fit the traditional definition of science?  Here we go.

Criterion 1. Empirical Phenomena.

Empirical refers to phenomena that are directly or indirectly observable. Now ID claims that there is empirical evidence of intelligence, information, and wisdom in nature. Their focus right now is on finding evidence of design in cells. A hypothesis that they’ve latched onto is irreducible complexity (IC). IC is the belief “that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or less complete predecessors, through natural selection acting upon a series of advantageous naturally-occurring, chance mutations.” Because it is possible to gather empirical data concerning the complexity of living systems, ID meets this criterion.  

 Criterion 2. Testable Predictions. 

A scientific theory generates testable predictions. To be sure, we can test IC by looking for irreducibly complex systems in nature, so ID makes testable predictions. There is not much more to say on this matter. I will add, however, that some have claimed that IC has been debunked because evolution has provided more rigorous, plausible evolutionary explanations for complexity. The fact that proponents of an opposing theory lay claim to a better explanation does not make ID and its IC hypothesis any less testable. The issue of which theory best explains
a phenomenon is another matter altogether and has little bearing on the testability issue

Criterion 3. Falsifiability.

Does ID allow for risky predictions that will allow us to prove that it is false?
Sure. In fact, opponents of ID are hard at work falsifying the irreducible complexity (IC) hypothesis. It’s kind of funny, but this is a good thing for IDers because it means that a major hypothesis of ID is supposedly falsifiable. So, in a way, opponents of ID are helping to guarantee its scientific status by trying to falsify its core tenet. Well, has IC been falsified? Scholars like Ken Miller say yes. He claims that the creation of the bacterial flagellum (a complex, multi-part propeller system) can be explained by natural selection and is thus not irreducibly complex. He has pointed out that if we remove 40 of the 50 separate parts in a bacterial flagellum and left the 10 protein parts connected to the membrane of the cell, those remaining 10 parts may function as a Type-III secretory system. Miller claims that this discovery refutes IC. Miller’s refutation suggests that ID posits falsifiable hypotheses

Criterion 4. Tentative Stance

Scientists should recognize that their theories may one day be proven false. Are proponents of ID willing to accept that their theory may one day be proven false? The idea that ID may be proven false is a HUGE problem here, folks. What sincere believer would be willing to consider that there is no supreme intelligence, or be willing to accept that there is no evidence of divine design in nature? Here we see the danger of tying up theology with science. If you closely ally your religious beliefs with a scientific idea, what happens when that scientific idea is eventually proven false, as so often happens? Tying up religious beliefs with scientific theory is risky. When scientific theories closely allied with religious belief fall, it sends people into a faith crisis tail spin. This is a potential problem, yet I haven’t seen anything which suggests that IDers have not taken a tentative stance.

Criterion 5. Crucial Experiments 

Crucial experiments are investigations that allow us to definitively decide between two competing theories, or, in other words, they are experiments that allow us to definitively conclude that a theory is false. This criterion is not an all or nothing issue - a theory is not automatically labeled unscientific if it cannot produce crucial experiments. This issue is a matter of degrees. The more crucial experiments a theory generates, the more rigorous it is. Has ID produced crucial experiments? Not yet. To the best of my knowledge ID is currently limited to “let’s go out and find evidence for IC,” sort of thing. What is lacking is manipulation of the IC process in the laboratory that would allow conclusions like: We manipulated biological system X in our laboratory and, true to our prediction, the system evolved an irreducibly complex mechanism Y. Before ID’s critics start opening the champagne bottles, I wish to point out that macroevolution has the same limitations. There is plenty of evidence supporting macroevolution, but to date it has not generated crucial tests due to limiting factors such as that it takes a very long time for new life forms to evolve.

Sum: For now, ID satisfies the traditional definition of science. It offers an empirical, rational, and testable approach to investigating complex systems. ID must be careful, however. Any attempt to make the supernatural the central focus of ID will render ID non-scientific by traditional standards. ID’s critics should take note that it is decidely anti-scientific to deny ID a voice simply because it challenges one’s favorite theory or because it reminds one of a nonscientific endeavor like creationism. If ID has legitimate discoveries to bring to the table, then let’s hear them out and allow debate, refutation, and criticism to take their normal course. ID will live or die. Either way, we should let the scientific process, not politics, decide its fate.
 

 


Comments

Rob Osborn
02/06/2011 21:55

I find it interesting that for the most part, ID proponents are not threatened by evolution as long as people hear their view. Evolutionists on the other hand feel extremely threatened if ID'ers get their equal say. Why is this? If evolution were really true, shouldn't they welcome ID into the debate to further prove they are right and ID is bunk? ID certainly welcomes evolution to the great debate because they believe that when one properly understands both sides of the argument, people will naturally side with ID. This to me shows the ignorance that evolutionists have towards finding the truth.

Reply
02/07/2011 01:29

"Their focus right now is on finding evidence of design in cells." What is your source for this? I don't think it is true. I think their focus is building a PR/political machine to make the general populace doubt evolution in a way that is totally unwarranted. (doubt isn't bad, but unwarranted, disproportionate doubt is bad because it serves political ends) How many people are actually spending most of their day doing science in a lab, or on a computer, or whatever? How many are lawyers, public speakers, popular book authors (as opposed to authoring peer reviewed research)?

Reply
Stan
02/07/2011 11:16

Rob, I think it is interesting that you defend ID even though it too supports an old Earth. You've criticized any scientific theory that supports an Earth older than 6,000 years many times before. Why does ID get a free pass from you?

Reply
02/07/2011 11:18

If "ID" meets the criteria for being a "science," then I think we need to be specific: it is FAILED science. Where in the ID field are the scientific papers in top-notch peer-reviewed journals? Where are the serious discussions of ID in conferences such as AAAS or Society for Neuroscience? Where are the ID findings that have advanced research in the field of biology, genetics, and geology, to name a few? Where is there ANY evidence that is demonstrably recognizable as "special creation?" ID is popular among some because it fits their favorite theologies. But, if God is above nature, NOT even "chance" processes like atomic fission are beyond God's purposes. If so, why does anyone cast certain natural processes as being against God? Why do we want to limit God? Why can't we LDS scientists just be guided by the data, like other scientists?

Reply
02/07/2011 11:25

"I find it interesting that for the most part, ID proponents are not threatened by evolution as long as people hear their view." Rob, that makes complete sense when you realize that ID is a PR thing, not a scientific endeavor. That's like saying, "It's interesting that for the most part, Tide detergent is happy to be mentioned in a product placement bit on a sitcom." Of course. It's PR. Being mentioned is the whole goal.

Reply
02/07/2011 12:17

The essential problem I see with most all defenders of ID is that they assume something is science unless proven otherwise. This is completely backwards. Rather, something is science once it has proven itself to be so, and ID simply hasn't. Rather than argue that anti-ID-ers haven't met the burden of proof which you lay at their feet, maybe you could try arguing why that burden is on them in the first place.

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Rob Osborn
02/07/2011 13:07

Stan, You must be mistaken on thinking me to be a young earth creationist, of the which i am not. I may believe some of their merits, which of course ID'ers also do, but I do not hold to their strict literal views. That said, ID as a theory says nothing on the date or origins of when we came into existance so I have no idea where you are coming from. My only critique with the 6,000 years is that I believe that there was no death on th eearth before 6,000 years ago. As for how long the earth's matter has been in existance? I have no idea!

Reply
Rob Osborn
02/07/2011 13:10

Cynthia L, ID is not a PR or political move. It is a scientific endeavor. That is why they actually have scientists who work the ID theory. If it were just a PR move, we could just pay off politicians to run their mouths in Washington.

Reply
Dave C
02/07/2011 13:27

Cynthia, A great deal of web and book sources on ID indicate that their focus right now is on finding evidence of design in cells. If you don't think this is true, then tell us what you think they're focusing on (scientifically speaking, not politically speaking). "I think their focus is building a PR/political machine to make the general populace doubt evolution in a way that is totally unwarranted." Some IDers probably feel this way, but only because some evolutionists have been playing the arrogant bully on top of the dirt pile, making sure that no one else makes it to the top. I think most IDers accept and support evolution to a certain extent and only wish to point out current weaknesses in the theory. Nothing wrong with that - that is science.

Reply
Dave C
02/07/2011 13:46

SFaux, Thank you for your important questions. "Where is the beef!?" is how you seem to have put it. I am also looking for the beef, but you know that breaking into journals, conferences, and the science culture takes time, especially when the gatekeepers are hostile to the new theory. As a professional in psychology, you know how difficult it was for psychology to gain credibility. It wasn't until Wilhelm Wundt set up a laboratory in Leipzig (late 1800s) to study consciousness via the natural science model of physics and chemistry that psychology gained entry into the scientific community. (This is why we've crowned him the father of psychology. Certainly others made equally impressive contributions and are deserving of the title.) However, psychology still suffers from a certain degree of "physics envy" - it is not fully recognized as being scientific, notwithstanding all the publications and scientific discoveries. The same goes for ID. It is relatively new and it will take some time before it more fully makes its mark in the scientific community. Some ID articles have been published and I expect more are on the way.

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Stan
02/07/2011 20:17

Rob, sorry I get confused sometimes. Perhaps you or Dave could clarify. Isn't ID a lot like evolution? Isn't the big difference that ID has direction and purpose while evolution does not? I am under the impression that the time scale and mechanism for speciation is similar with ID and evolution. If that is so, you've introduced a very interesting concept combining ID and no death before the fall.

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Rob Osborn
02/08/2011 09:12

Stan, ID is the theory that challenges the theory of evolution by natural selection, but I am pretty sure you already knew that. No death before the fall is a truth taught by the church. ID does not concern itself with the concept of no death before the fall. Even for evolutionists who are also LDS, they do not combine their religious beliefs of the fall with evolution.

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Stan
02/08/2011 10:02

Rob, I understand that ID challenges evolution. I thought it shared certain aspects with evolution such as time scales. Isn't there also mutation over time only those mutations are caused by a designer rather than chance?

My real question to you, is ID and no death before the fall compatible?

Reply
Rob Osborn
02/08/2011 12:06

I wasn't aware that ID specifies a time scale. I am sure that regardless of how one views the timescale that the merits or principles of ID do not change. Evolution on the other matter....

Reply
Rob Osborn
02/08/2011 12:09

ID as it's main principle concerns itself with the matter or principle of lifes complexities and origins- whether or not they came about by chance or some kind of intelligent cause.

Reply
raedyohed
02/08/2011 12:36

I disagree with the conclusion of the OP. Briefly: Your “criteria 1” is flawed. This weakens or fully undercuts the arguments in your other criteria. Your conclusion is consequently unfounded. I’ll elaborate.

Claim: "ID claims that there is empirical evidence of intelligence, information, and wisdom in nature. …ID satisfies the traditional definition of science."

The current ID efforts seem to be reduced to the search for irreducible complexity at the cellular/molecular level. As an aside I think the reason that ID focuses on this area is because it views the molecular cellular levels of biology as being the potentially rich in processes that cannot be explained by current evolutionary theory. This stems from a misunderstanding of the fundamental principles of biology, which are the same at all of its levels. Chromosomes, cells, tissues, organs, organisms, populations, and species all emerge naturally out of a small set of easily defined and observable patterns and processes. For an excellent layman's-level discussion of this see "The Mermaid's Tale" by Weiss & Buchanan.
Every null hypothesis in science has an epistemological purpose. What is the purpose of positing IC for a given system? Relative to IDs claim, the purpose of IC is to identify an observed state of nature, the explanation for which must rely on the intervention of some other creative (or more precisely, manipulative) force. In reality, if and when a system can be said to be IC, such a conclusion is only of value in as far as it uncovers insufficiencies in our current understanding of evolutionary mechanisms. I welcome this, and see at least a glimmer of usefulness in positing IC as a thought experiment or null hypothesis.
Unfortunately for the movement, IC will fall time and time again as a tool used to deepen our understanding of the evolution of complexity. ID hopes that the discovery of an IC system will lend credence to the notion that there was at some point in time an intervention of a manipulative force, which could be looked on as a cause for the existence of that IC system. The IC system itself wouldn’t be proof of such an intervention, but could be used as leverage for the above deduction based on the a priori assumption that such a force exists.
By extension if such a force exists, and its intervention can be supported, then natural history (or at least a part of it) becomes teleological by definition. This would be a major coup, but even going this far, which is a stretch, it is yet a further stretch to say that ID, by way of IC, will have found "empirical evidence of intelligence, information, and wisdom" since not only are these subjective categorizations, they fall outside the realm of evidentiary claim, let alone biological science. To the extent that ID's central theory is of a "wise" intervening force "intelligently" increasing the "information" in nature it fails at providing a directly falsifiable claim, ergo it does not hold a tentative stance.
IC can be investigated scientifically. It might even find a niche as a useful
null hypothesis in bioengineering, systems biology, evolutionary development, and other related fields. IC at best might help improve our understanding of how things evolved and continue to evolve, and will serve as a foil in further strengthening the spontaneous emergence of complexity in nature. IC does not have the epistemological leverage to prove the central theory of ID as described in the OP. ID as a whole is not based on rational inquiry, but rather pins its hopes on a misunderstanding of biological fundamentals and irrational and unwarranted leaps of logic.

Pardon the length of my reply!

Reply
Stan
02/08/2011 13:38

raedyohed, using ID to further our understanding of evolution. Brilliant! I like it!

Rob, you're being evasive again. Do you believe ID and NDBTF to be compatible?

Reply
Dave C.
02/08/2011 14:00

Rob,

" ID is not a PR or political move. It is a scientific endeavor. That is why they actually have scientists who work the ID theory. If it were just a PR move, we could just pay off politicians to run their mouths in Washington."

Nicely put!


Reply
Dave C.
02/08/2011 14:06

Stan,

"is ID and no death before the fall compatible?"

- At this point I don't think that ID has dwelt on the issue of when the creation happened. The focus is mostly on the origins of complexity in living systems, not when those systems arose.

Reply
Dave C.
02/08/2011 15:00

Raedyohed,

Thank you for your reply. I find it insightful and a worthwhile criticism. I start with where I disagree and finish with where I agree.

Your argument drills down into the epistemological value of searching for evidence of design and asks in a legitimate way, whether we can ever make honest claims about the presence and absence of intelligent design. Though intelligence, information, and wisdom are somewhat subjective categorizations, I don’t think it is a stretch to agree upon a definition or instance of design. A starting point is defining design by what it is not – randomness. If we take the following two sequences of numbers: (3, 6, 2, 0, 5, 1, 2, 3, 9, 4) and (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5) most everyone can agree which one is random and which one was designed. Even though we cannot tell for sure (i.e., design may have produced the first and randomness the second), we can agree that the second was probably designed. This process is empirical in every sense of the word. IMO, it is within the realm of evidentiary claims.

Part of the problem with IC, as you point out, is that parts of it operate as a sort of “god of the gaps” explanation for places where evolution is not presently capable of explaining complexity. This is a reasonable criticism – ID will not survive long if it simply operates as a fill in the gaps theory for places where evolution fails to provide an adequate explanation.

“The IC system itself wouldn’t be proof of such an intervention, but could be used as leverage for the above deduction based on the a priori assumption that such a force exists.”

Sure. I bring up this criticism in my discussion of Criterion #5. Finding more and more evidence for IC in nature does not prove ID because that evidence stemmed from an inductive approach. Proving a scientific hypothesis requires controlled testing via the hypothetico-decuctive model of science, preferable a crucial experiment. This is lacking in ID as it is in macroevolutionary research.

“By extension if such a force exists, and its intervention can be supported, then natural history (or at least a part of it) becomes teleological by definition”

IMO this is a great point. If the study of natural history becomes largely teleological, then what? How does that change science? I don’t know. I hope we don’t abandon material and efficient causation.

Reply
Rob Osborn
02/08/2011 15:20

Looks like raedyohed made quite a good case for how atheistic evolution is.

To all,

What is it about "intelligence" itself that we can't explain scientifically? If evolution were true, where is the map biologically showing how intelligence evolves and thus- how intelligence works? On a cellular level, how is it possible that each individual part somehow knows it's overall placement and roll in doing it's specific task that lends roll to the overall makeup of the specimen? How can evolution account for this?

If Intelligence, as an entity (God, etc) can exist, would it make sense that the signature mark of it would be something intelligent itself? What I am getting at is that causless actions in nature do not produce intelligent entities like you and I. Evolutionists insist that intelligence was indeed manufactured from random acts in nature but yet the question remains- please explain the math behind how intelligence works- how it can possibly evolve on a cellular level.

Reply
02/08/2011 15:38

"Even though we cannot tell for sure (i.e., design may have produced the first and randomness the second), we can agree that the second was probably designed."
<p>
Wow. No, we can not agree on that. You could just as easily point to almost *anything* in geology and biology and astronomy that we now have naturalistic explanations for, and say, "we can agree that this was probably designed." Take for example this: http://blog.alwaysquiltingonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/nature-pattern1gif1.jpg
<p>
To me, that succulent is no less non-"random"-looking than (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5), yet we have good naturalistic explanations for why the leaves make that pattern.
<p>
"This process is empirical in every sense of the word. IMO, it is within the realm of evidentiary claims.
<p>
So, if ID says that the succulent isn't a slam-dunk proof of IC, but (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5) is, how is it making that distinction?? It isn't an empirical distinction. It seems like it is just based on whether other (actual) scientists happen to have already explained it. Where is the predictive power? This just reduces to a sad version of "God of the gaps."

Reply
02/08/2011 15:46

"This is a reasonable criticism – ID will not survive long if it simply operates as a fill in the gaps theory for places where evolution fails to provide an adequate explanation."

The problem is that it WILL survive long, because it is impervious to evidence and reason (just look at this blog and these comment threads!). A bad scientific theory put forth by honest scientists can die--it can be disproven.

But a PR machine that only cares about sowing <i>just</i> enough doubt, and attracting <i>just</i> enough attention and deference to get by, will never die. It will continue to convince hapless victims to "just give it a chance." That's exactly what's happening. Congratulations, mormonsandscience blog! You are the eternal life elixir that ID drinks to survive.

Reply
Dave C.
02/08/2011 16:13

Cynthia,

"Even though we cannot tell for sure (i.e., design may have produced the first and randomness the second), we can agree that the second was probably designed. Wow. No, we can not agree on that."

Maybe you can't, but many other people can agree. Tell you what, when I am teaching my stats class tonight, I'll put that example up on the board and ask students which sequence appears random and which appears designed. I'll let you know what the students say.

Your comment is to be praised for adding a healthy dose of skepticism, but skepticism can go too far.

Things which are observed in an objective manner are empirical; this is a classical text definition. Indeed your arguments against one number sequence being clearly random and the other being designed suggests that analyzing evidence for (AND against) design is an empirical phenomenon.

i.e., "To me, that succulent is no less non-"random"-looking than (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5), yet we have good naturalistic explanations for why the leaves make that pattern."
-sounds like an empirical observation to me.

Thanks for taking the time to express your views.

Reply
Dave C.
02/08/2011 16:17

Cynthia,

"This is a reasonable criticism – ID will not survive long if it simply operates as a fill in the gaps theory for places where evolution fails to provide an adequate explanation."
The problem is that it WILL survive long, because it is impervious to evidence and reason (just look at this blog and these comment threads!). A bad scientific theory put forth by honest scientists can die--it can be disproven."

Cynthia, where is your evidence for such strong claims?

"Congratulations, mormonsandscience blog! You are the eternal life elixir that ID drinks to survive."

Well, thanks for the compliment. However I doubt that this site influences opinions on ID in any meaningful way.

Reply
Stan
02/08/2011 22:07

It must be very hard for you to be looked down upon by your peers.

http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2131

Reply
raedyohed
02/08/2011 22:55

@Stan, thanks for the compliment!

@Dave C
In reading over your response and the OP for a second time, I think I would conclude by saying that if the entire OP were reformulated to by entirely IC specific I would agree with it pretty strongly. The link from IC to IDs broader claim remains weak, and IDs broader claims remain impossible to investigate using rational epistemology. If limited to IC your points are all very well made, and I would join you in arguing that in essence IC meets the criteria of scientific inquiry.

I can't give the rest of your reply the full response it deserves, but in connection with your number sequence point I’ll just point out that “order” (whatever that is) emerges out of nature. Seriously, you would dig The Mermaid's Tale. Biology paradigm shift. For me anyway.

You asked "If the study of natural history becomes largely teleological, then what?"

Hmmmm... what if the natural sciences adopted a teleological view of the universe? I think we know what would happen, and that it would be a bad thing. The prevailing scientific focus would shift from observing natural events and elucidating their mechanisms towards efforts to elucidate what purpose a given event has in some grand yet unknown scheme. That might not seem problematic. In fact that's what many people do today -- take into account natural events and attempt to ascribe meaning to them, or fit them together with a theological system. That's a good thing. But if this crossed over into the scientific paradigm we would abandon our search for mechanisms. Science would become sorcery again, impotent to solve any material-world problem.

Of further concern is that if scientific inquiry itself became focused on the notion of purpose then the inquiry itself would become a war over what "the purpose" was, and everyone already thinks they have all the answers to what "the purpose" is. The prevailing view of "the purpose" would become institutionalized, all scientific energy would be redirected towards reinforcing that view, and we would lose all capacity for large-scale objective inquiry. Instead there would be Mormon-science and Catholic-science and evangelical-science and capitalist-science and communist-science. This actually happened, we know, and millions starved in Russia. OK, maybe that’s harsh… but Lysenko, I mean come one! We don’t want that.

I am sensitive to the fact that it seems uncomfortable for those of us who have a deeply held teleological view of the universe to be forced to check it at the door in order to undertake objective scientific inquiry; I count myself in that group, too. But it has to be done. Otherwise, the whole notion of hypothesis driven research becomes what is known in courtroom drama parlance as "asked and answered."


@Rob
"Looks like raedyohed made quite a good case for how atheistic evolution is."
My reply to Dave C (above) I touched on the importance of non-ideological science, and is in part a reply to your assessment, so I’ll elaborate. We often think that instead of faith-science (which is the good kind) we have atheist-science (which is bad). In fact we have neither, though I’ll admit there are some very vocal atheist scientists. It also apparently doesn’t help that just talking about these things from first principles sounds atheistic to some.

What we do have (or hope for) is a system where we don't assign any a priori value to the phenomena we investigate or the conclusions this leads to. In this way we aren't bound by preconceived notions of the world we're investigating. These preconceptions are not inherently bad, but they are wrong, even if only a teeny tiny bit wrong. We're always at least a tiny bit wrong about everything. So, in this way the researcher is free to discover simple objective truths independent of the various philosophies those simple truths might reform, redirect or even overturn. It’s not atheistic, it’s an exercise in discovery through discipline and self-restraint.

In connection with your cell-role and evolution question I'll also refer you to The Mermaid's Tale. It discusses how evolution and the fundamental "rules" of life account for the organization we see at all levels from molecules to populations. Those are really, really big questions you are raising and there are lots of people swinging!

Reply
Dave C.
02/09/2011 10:15

Stan,

"It must be very hard for you to be looked down upon by your peers.
http://sciencebysteve.net/?p=2131"

People who respond in a hostile manner toward me when I question evolution are not my peers. I am very confident in my views because they are rooted in sound scientific demarcation criteria.

I respect Mr. Peck and I don't wish to create hard feelings between he and I, and I think he feels the same way. So we respectfully stay away from each other's blogs. I read his post on ID; it was rather pugnacious in tone, yet I harbor no hard feelings toward him. I simply disagree and have the philosophy of science to back up my views.

I am tired of reading catch phrases like "ID is not science" and "ID is creationism". I care only about a rational evaluation of the ID movement, and I think this is lacking. There is too much emotion involved. I have read the judge's decision on ID. I think ID was misrepresented in that trial. Anyway, the specifics of that trial is probably worthy of a post.

Cheers.

Reply
Dave C.
02/09/2011 11:37

Raedyohed,

I have found our discussion on this topic very informative.

I agree that ID’s claims are too broad to directly investigate with a rational epistemology. I do not consider this a weakness, however. What matters is whether we can formulate testable hypotheses that arise from the theory. We rarely test theories directly; we test hypotheses that spin off from the theories. Nevertheless, I concede that a current weakness of ID is that it has formulated very few testable hypotheses. Right now ID is largely stuck with IC, which means that, in a way, ID is basically IC and the OP probably could be changed to refer to IC as you suggested.

I really like your comments on teleology. If science becomes purpose/telic driven then I agree that we would have serious problems. If science becomes driven by teleological explanations we would stop searching for mechanistic explanations and suffer a terrible setback. For over a thousand years people accepted Aristotle’s view on gravity which was that objects fell to the earth because they have an inherent tendency/purpose to reach the center of the earth. We all know where that got us. It wasn’t until Newton came along with his mathematical description of the mechanism that we made progress on gravity. Again, this is an excellent argument against an overzealous ID movement. It’s led me to the conclusion that ID should not replace evolution as the main paradigm for investigating complexity. Perhaps it could co-exist, but not replace. (See here! I have changed my opinion in response to a reasonable argument. I don’t usually change my mind when confronted with hyperbole against ID that is present on other sites).

I absolutely agree that a believer needs to check his or her theological purpose-driven leanings when carrying out scientific research. Science cannot hypothesize God, but it can do a better job of recognizing Him as a source of truth about the natural world. Our government, educational, and legal institutions acknowledge Him in some small way, but science does not. It is so God hostile right now, but that is another topic.

Reply
02/09/2011 12:21

>> "Even though we cannot tell for sure
>> (i.e., design may have produced the
>> first and randomness the second), we
>> can agree that the second was probably
>> designed. Wow. No, we can not agree on
>> that."
>
> Maybe you can't, but many other people
> can agree. Tell you what, when I am
> teaching my stats class tonight, I'll
> put that example up on the board and
> ask students which sequence appears
> random and which appears designed.
> I'll let you know what the students say.

This is great because it shows just how definition-less IC is---put it up to a vote! I've polled my students on the Monty Hall problem, and let me tell you, that's not a reliable way to get the right answer. Some things are not intuitive.

BTW, If any of your stats students say that the string (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5) is any less likely to come out of a random number generator than the string (3, 6, 2, 0, 5, 1, 2, 3, 9, 4), you should fail them. All strings are equally likely.

This example also illustrates very well other problems with ID. In particular, defining "random" and "designed" requires context. We have to know what environment these are arising in. The above example implicitly posits a random number generator as the origin of these strings, which has nothing to do with Biology. Biological organisms individually and collectively/historically exist within systems with various competition, various resources. That shapes how they turn out. Just like the succulent photo---sure, if you had no idea a context for that lovely mathematical structure, you might think it had to be designed. Only when you look at the context to you see how it can arise naturalisitcally.

Another issues with context that is illustrated by your example is that we have to know things about the intent of the mysterious designer. Case in point: BOTH your strings were designed--by you! One was designed to look random, the other was designed to make people say it looks designed. Part of the problem with ID is that all the evidence in the world for non-design (vestigial organs, structures in common/re-purposing, etc) doesn't falsify ID because you can always say, "well, the designer designed that part to look random!"--Just like you designed one of your two strings to appear random.

Reply
Dave C.
02/09/2011 12:47

Cynthia,
As you probably guessed, every student said the first sequence was random and the second was designed. However you are right that I created the random looking sequence myself which means that it is not random. It told the class about this. But using the R statistics command “x <- sample(10:0, 10, replace=T)” to produce a sequence of numbers from 0 to 9 that is truly random, I get “1 3 6 2 4 0 1 8 9 3”. It looks random just like the random-looking sequence I produced.

I agree with your assertion that we cannot say for sure which sequence is random and which is planned; one of my students even pointed this out. The point I am trying to make is that we can use empirical observation to come up with a reasonable judgment about which is random and which is designed. We may be wrong, but that does not make the judgment any less empirical.

“BTW, If any of your stats students say that the string (1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5) is any less likely to come out of a random number generator than the string (3, 6, 2, 0, 5, 1, 2, 3, 9, 4), you should fail them. All strings are equally likely.”

- Indeed they are both equally likely, as is 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1. I am not debating the likelihood or probability; I am making a statement about whether or not it is empirical problem.

“defining "random" and "designed" requires context.”

-I wholeheartedly agree!

Thanks for sharing your views.

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Rob Osborn
02/10/2011 12:48

OF one other note that I have always found amusing-

Evolution by natural selection is a scientific theory by ever right, definition, and principle. So, if anyone came along and challenged that theory, it too should be scientific right?

This is exactly what ID theory proposes to do- to challenge the theory of evolution by natural selection.

So, I find it amusing that evolutionists cry foul over anyone who questions their theory. What, is it scientifically impossible to question evolution by natural selection? Wouldn't that make the theory of evolution by natural selection not a theory at all? I mean really- it can only be a theory if it is able to be falsifiable through scientific inquiry. And that is exactly what ID theory is doing. So, the minute the evolutionists claim ID is not a scientific theory is the same moment that they have to admit their own theory of evolution can't be a scientific theory be very definition.


Anyways...just always found that to be amusing.

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djinn
02/10/2011 14:37

Say structure X is composed of A, B, and C, each necessary for function; that is A, B, and C together are "irreducibly complex." However, the structure could have started out as A, B+, C, and D. B+ modified to take over the role of D, turning into B, and D dropped out. This gives us A, B, and C.

Or, X was initially composed of A alone; B appeared, (perhaps as a result of the mutation of A into two copies of A, a common occurrence, and then as B could be used to perform some of the functions of A, A and B both modified in ways that made B required. Now A and B together appear to be irreducibly complex.

This outcome of evolution was first spotted by the Nobel prize winning biologist H. J. Muller in papers that came out in 1919 and 1939. Specifically, the mechanisms go under the name Muller's Morphs. Look it up.

So, the current crop of IDists are taking something previously shown to be a natural consequence of evolution and, uh, missed the point somewhat spectacularly.

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Dave C.
02/10/2011 15:18

Rob,

"So, I find it amusing that evolutionists cry foul over anyone who questions their theory. What, is it scientifically impossible to question evolution by natural selection? Wouldn't that make the theory of evolution by natural selection not a theory at all?"

Way to hit the nail on the head!

People who understand a bit of history know that this is the very criticism that Karl Popper leveled against Freud's psychodynamic theory of development. Popper noticed that the Freudians believed that their theory always had an answer for everything and that it could not be proven false.

Sounds like evolution today, doesn't it? In the current scientific culture, no one must challenge evolutionary dogma. Everyone must drink the natural selection kool aid, fall in line, and march like a devout goose-stepping evolutionist.

Vive la resistance!

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Stan
02/10/2011 16:31

"Way to hit the nail on the head!"

Are you going on record that you do not believe evolution to be a scientific theory and that it is "scientifically impossible to question evolution by natural selection"?

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Dave C.
02/10/2011 16:59

Stan,

I am on record as saying and teaching that evolution is science and subject to falsification and criticism.

The fact that many evolutionists think that their theory (esp. macroevolution) is immune to criticism suggests that the emperor of natural science is missing a few articles of clothing but doesn't know it.

Cheers.

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02/10/2011 17:18

Behold, yet another fine contribution to the philosophy of science by a faithful IDer. The arts and humanities department thanks you.

The biological scientists, however, are still awaiting your submission.

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Dave C.
02/10/2011 21:28

Jeff,

I have learned by sad experience that people who run out of rational arguments often turn to personal attacks. You are welcome on mormonsandscience when you have rigorous arguments to bring to the discussion.

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Stan
02/11/2011 00:28

Hmmmm. This is confusing.

Rob said this...
"So, I find it amusing that evolutionists cry foul over anyone who questions their theory. What, is it scientifically impossible to question evolution by natural selection? Wouldn't that make the theory of evolution by natural selection not a theory at all?"

Which states that since evolution is not subject to criticism by the establishment, it is not truly a scientific theory.

Then you said...

"Way to hit the nail on the head!"

meaning that you agree. But then you tell me...

"I am on record as saying and teaching that evolution is science and subject to falsification and criticism. "

Meaning you think it should be taught that evolution is a scientific theory and is subject to criticism.

I'm a bit puzzled. Now don't get me wrong, this is not an attack on you, even though you are a statistician in a psychology dept. trying to show that an overwhelming consensus of scientists in the biological sciences are dead wrong, but it seems to me your statements are in conflict. Does evolution fail as a theory due to the establishments conspiracy like protection from outside criticism and competing theories, or should we teach that it is a valid scientific theory open to criticism?

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djinn
02/11/2011 02:54

"So, I find it amusing that evolutionists cry foul over anyone who questions their theory." No, no no no no. To question for realsies you have to have a hypothesis, test it, etc. Please do so and then get back to us evilutionists. Also, you might want to read up on Muller's morphs and then consider why the ID people may have a bit of a problem with people who seriously examine the ID work.

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djinn
02/11/2011 02:55

Natural history is not teleological. Evolution isn't going to any specific place. No teleology. I'm not sure where this idea came from. cfr?

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02/11/2011 03:15

Oh come now. While my comment was pretty pretty snarky, it certainly doesn't amount to a personal attack. Stripped of it's sarcasm, I think that I'm bringing a fairly serious criticism against ID:

Namely, that almost 100% of ID publications are not science, but are instead instances of the philosophy of science. When it comes to the philosophy of science, IDers aren't all that bad, IMHO. However, no amount of philosophy of science will ever amount to actual science.

To summarize: The reason why ID isn't getting recognized as science is because almost everything they ever talk about is not science, but philosophy.

I think ID makes for a fantastic topic of study in a philosophy class. But until IDers stop talking philosophy and start doing some actual science, they will continue to be ignored.

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Rob Osborn
02/11/2011 23:36

Jeff G,

Are you sure about that? I have a book called "Darwins black box" By Michael Behe. iT is completely full of "science". Behe himself is a recognized biologist. He actively debates science with other scientists on the matter of evolution and ID. I am pretty sure that the book I have is not on philosophy. I bought the book close to 10 years ago at Barnes and Noble. I found the book in the science section, not the philosophy section. In his book he goes on into greta detail about how cells work and the building blocks of life work. Last time I checked, cell function is a matter of the bilogy sciences, not philosophy.

Let me just ask you this-

Is it legitamate for someone to challenge Darwins theory of evolution? Would that challenge thus be legitamate science if they used scientific equipment, had degrees in science, wrote books on their study, etc?

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02/12/2011 10:34

Rob,

I too have read that book... a few times. It is a great example of popular science. A book about science. But we both know that exactly zero of Behe's main conclusions were backed by any kind of experimental data. In other words, even though his book was about science, that doesn't make it science itself. That's why you don't see Dawkins' or Gould's books used as texts in any science classroom. I mean, cmon, doesn't the fact that they are producing highly speculative books for a general audience before they do ANY experiements at all a bit of a red flag?

"Is it legitamate for someone to challenge Darwins theory of evolution?" Of course it is.

"Would that challenge thus be legitamate science if they used scientific equipment, had degrees in science, wrote books on their study, etc?" No, it wouldn't. It would only be legitimate science if they actually did the science. You know, doing experiements, collecting data and so on.

The closest any IDer has come to actually doing this, to my knowledge, is Dembski, but even then he was simply doing math.

Where are the experiements? Where is the replicable data? In other words, where is the science?

At this point it just gets really hard to take any "Is ID science?" post seriously. That question itself is surely not science, and it doesn't seem like there is much more to ID than that question right there.

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djinn
02/12/2011 12:16

"Darwin's Black Box" did attempt to make a scientific try to disprove the modern theory of evolution. It just failed. Flat. For starters, Behe didn't adequately know the field, and so showed something previously shown (and awarded the Nobel for) to be a feature of Evolution--Muller's morphs. It's not enough to present a hypothesis, you then have to show why its better than former hypotheses, and how it has more predictive ability. Behe has not done so;

Here's a nice write-up on the problems: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ICsilly.html

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